Dodge

[aliddellobsessed]

Hey everyone,

I was just wondering if anyone else saw a correlation between Dodge and Reverend Dodgson?

Lewis Carroll, whose proper name was Reverend Dodgson, was a suspected paedophile (he had suggestive pictures and paintings of naked young children, no adult female relationships, and spent vast amounts of time with young girls, such as Alice Liddell and her sisters).

It's suspected that he was in love with Alice Liddell, but when he told her family, they suddenly broke from relations with the reverend in 1863. That's only speculation.

However, in the book, Dodge is in love with Alice but can't do anything about it because of social standard, similar to Reverend Dodgson in reality. Does anyone else see a correlation between the two, or am I just stretching it and seeing things where there are no things to see?

[Lady_Melisma]

aliddellobsessed, you're definitely not the only one. I read AIW and TTLG when I was younger, read LGW a couple of years ago and got into the originals again which led to my researching Carroll and his muse. I suppose Beddor wove that subplot into the narrative as acknowledgement of the speculation.

In Wikipedia it's stated that of the Reverend's personal journals, those covering the years he befriended Alice Liddell, the falling out with the Liddell family and a single page for an unidentified entry years later are missing and presumed lost. Some say Carroll's family had them removed and destroyed as they contained damning evidence against the man. After reading LGW, I wonder if Beddor will write that the missing journals were recovered by Wonderland's agents and currently rest secure in a vault somewhere in the Heart Palace.

[Mobius]

Hey... don't say that about Carroll...:(

[aliddellobsessed]

Why not? Most authorities believe he was a paedophile. There's more evidence for it than against it. Why shouldn't I say it?

[ReadingChick]

Not meaning to sound rude, but maybe Mobius prefers to concentrate on the stories rather than the private life of the author.

As for me... I think its an interesting thought, but I have my doubts about whether it was intentional.

[Mad Hatter Madigan]

No, no, no,
There is lacking evidence to support that theory about Dodgeson.
It only became popular due to it's shock value.

Dodgeson did do nude photo shoots, with women and childern.
Most of them were the styles of the victorian age, and the love of photos. (Lookup the Victorian Cult of the child)
In the LGW book they even mention the rich and welathy having the fascination with childern.
Childern were in art, books, photos, everywhere... wealthy couples wanted beautiful childern, that was the fascination of the time.

The cut pages of his diaries were to reported by Dodgeson's nieces.

The breakup between Dodgeson and the Liddells was mentioned to be the differences of political and religious views Dodgeson and Alice's Father had with the church.

If there was child abuse, was didn't Alice mention it? She lived until she was 80 years old, and had a child she named "Caryl".
I am not going to make an ignorant statement, saying there's no way it could have happened... but no one should be making ignorant statements link Carroll to pedophilia.

There is not enough evidence to calim either theory.

[Princess Alyss Heart]

yes, but its still quite interesting even if there isn't enough evidence to support anything!:p

[Mad Hatter Madigan]

Truthfully, I do not like entertaining the thought...

I am dedicated to Lewis Carroll, and it hurts me when people throw out accusations without proper proof.

Forgive my straight forwardness... it's becoming personal for me...

[TigerLily]

I didn't actually know anything about these accusations until I got on this website (naturally I wish I hadn't heard them). But I could see how Dodgeson could be a little obsessed with Alice, especially the character of Alice which he immortalized, without being a pedophile. I know we can't know (and speculation can be an ugly thing), but it isn't fair to damn the man posthumously.

Particularly if he wasn't accused, but it was just supposed. I realize it was the Victorian era, but it seems that someone would have made formal accusation, right?

Ugh, I'd rather discuss the books and characters. :)

[aliddellobsessed]

I do so love how no one will entertain the idea or even look at the main question: Do you see a correlation between the characters?

Do feel free to excuse said accusations, although I did not accuse, I said he was a suspected paedophile. So calm yourselves. You're all so actively dedicated to Carroll, apparently.

Answer the question, not the surrounding information. Pay attention and read the entire post before you go brandishing justice here and there willy nilly. No no, my friends. Do you see a similarity? Was Beddor inspired by Carroll to make Dodge? Is it all a coincidence? Those are the questions. Carroll's sexual preferences are not in question.

[TigerLily]

Hmmmm . . . well, speaking for myself anyway, I am not sure I can even lift justice, let alone brandish it. And who, for goodness sake, are Willy and Nilly?

But (almost) seriously . . . aforementioned accusations are the ones you quoted, not the one you made, as I understand. So I don't think you are personally being attacked, so no need to defend (and come on, you must be a bit "actively committed" yourself to use the name aliddellobsessed, right? couldn't help but notice that irony).

I think that many people feel the way about an author's personal life the way they might feel about an actor's. It isn't that the discussion doesn't have a place - take, for instance, the filmmaker who was accused (convicted?) of having sex with a minor (a YOUNG minor), and yet he won an Oscar. Certainly, the conversation needs to be had, especially when we aren't just talking about adultery, drink/drugs, etc, but crime of a much more serious nature.

But I think with authors, as with actors, knowing too much about their personal lives is a distraction from their art, which is why I like (and I assume others like) to be able to read Alice without seeing the shadow of a pedophile behind her. If he was accused and convicted, that is one thing, but if it was just supposition, then I guess that is why I don't want to think about it. I admit to a hypocritical sort of "ostrich-ism" there.

I also think you can raise the question of whether Beddor wrote a bit of Dodgson into Dodge separate from the pedophilia question. Certainly Dodge's love for Alice, while currently unrequited, is the right sort of love.

TL

[dodge anders]

It makes sence...the names are similiar, and I guess Dodgeson sort of liked Alice Liddel, so yea, its possible

[DodgeAnders]

Few things:

Dodge Anders & Charles Dodgson> Yes. Saw this immediately, although to be fair, it's also covered in the book. (in the chapter with Alyss telling Dodgson about neverland, he 'mentions' that he feels Dodge is her putting HIM in his story).

A few things about Charles Dodgson in question to the pediphilic nature. I'm just clearing things up on the issue, since some things are being stated that aren't entirely the full story.


1. Charles Dodgson's photography is actually considered very revolutionary in a lot of photography circles as concerned with the way he protrayed people and his methods of photography. He had a habit of picturing a lot of daily life photography. While yes, there is a photograph of Alice Liddell in a 'begger's maid' costume...if you have seen any of the other photographs of Alice Liddell and her sisters they are in FULL clothing. That's the only photograph that comes anywhere near 'questionable' means, and since Alice had posed in several 'costumes' for Dodgson (And for other photographers...especially as a goddess when she was over), it's very plausible this was a harmless photograph. Dodgson did use Alice and her sisters a lot as models, because he was a friend of the family, but they weren't his only subjects.

Dodgeson's 'nude photographs' span actual full families (Save for Ada of course, who is different case due to her profession in life), there are only '8 sessions' and they spanned over 13 years. None of the families are the Liddells or Liddell children, and all show the family in normal daily activities, nothing that is outwardly disgusting and vile. (Artistic nude versus pornography)

2. Charles Dodgson with the Liddell children> Alice had I think..6 siblings? More than her two sisters. Also, during the time period both Alice and Dodgson lived, it was not UNCOMMON for families to host adults. Not that this proves or disproves pedophilia, but Dodgson's overall exposure to the girls was a handful of years (I think..like.. 2 or 3?) at most. (Before leaving) ALSO, after Dodgson LEFT there was ANOTHER man (another author in fact) who also stayed with the Liddells and ALSO had a similar type of relationship with the younger daughters.

Also, again, someone can be FOND of children and not be a pedophile.

3. The 'lost pages'
Oy. I hate this whole mess. You could dedicate an entire thread to this mess and debate it for hours Yes, there were conclusions that the missing pages (That were missing from the time Carroll abruptly severed ties from the Liddells) involved Alice. As of recently, diary records have 'supposedly' reappeared from Dodgson's neice who transcribed what Carroll reportedly said.

Apparently, (according to these so called 'lost pages') Carroll's sudden 'break' was because Mrs Liddell found that Carroll was using her children to get closer to their governess...and a suspected relationship with Ina (Alice's older sister). Alice is not named at all.

I'm guess this mainly comes from not only Dodgson mentioning alice, but also his infamous Alice Liddell poem 'she haunts me still'.

4. Charles Dodgson was a virgin(?)
This, can be debated of course in depth, but before the pedophile propoganda was brought up, Charles Dodgson had previously been written off as a stout devote celebate man. There's a famous book on celebacy that has a huge section dedicated to him. It wasn't under this recent decade that 'rumored evidence' has been brought up to suggest otherwise. He was single his entire life...and for most that's recorded...Charles wasn't amazingly smooth with the ladies. (He had a horrible studder...something Beddor shows off in LGW - which i totally squealled about!)

5. Child nudes were commonplace in Victorian times
Just a fact. They were considered fashionable at the time to portray innocence, instead of sexual in nature.

Robert Leggat wrote a pretty interesting paper on Carroll and his relationships with children (concerning Carroll's photography):
http://www.rleggat.com/photohistory/history/carroll-2.htm

I like the theory of Beddor mixing the rumored emotions of Carroll as an idea for Dodgson's character. I just thought it was a way of creating a love affair that never happened (but everyone wished it did).

FYI, there is evidence that Dodgson DID put himself in Alice in Wonderland....as the Dodo. ;) With the studdering etc.

Great site for more information on Charles Dodgeson (with facts etc so you can decide for yourself.)
http://www.lookingforlewiscarroll.com/


Is it possible? Yes, it's always possible, however I personally consider it unlikely. I think Dodgson had more of a fondness and innocent relationship with the Liddell children then something of more devious means.